La Vengeance

Posted by F.F. on Monday 10th of April 2023 23:31

On the website of the USS Constitution Museum, a most interesting analysis dealing also with the French 36-pounder obusier de vaisseau: «Carronades for the Tops: A New Interpretation».

Posted by F.F. on Monday 10th of April 2023 23:19

Horatio Nelson warned to never believe what was written in newspapers.

Regarding French obusiers de vaisseaux, that is true: it was common, in the British papers, to consider them as 42-pounder carronades, for the weight of 36 French pounds equalled 38.85 English pounds, which, when compared to British sea-ordnance, sounded nearer to 42 than to 32.

William James in Naval History (vol. I, introduction) explains how the British Admiralty was reluctant towards carronades, seen as obsolete short guns; the French captains believed the same, but at short range it proved dangerous to sails, riggings and masts. In April 1782, at the Saintes, the French flagship dropped in the British line because of her leewardiness (consequence of a change in specifications during her building). It enabled the British carronades to quickily unrigg that ship and three other which had follow her in trying to save their admiral. In September 1782, the captain of the French frigate Hébé choose to fight at very short range against a ship mounting carronades, and the Hebé was taken because of that. Then the French Navy felt a need for carronades, and howitzers were ordered, but were too lightly built to use propellant enough, and were too short, both features giving a fire highly lacking accuracy, even at short range.

Both the French 36-pounder gun and the British 32-pounder (9' 6") had a range (at +5°) of some 1,7 or 1,8 ㎞ (some 1.1 mile), and weighed between 190 and 200 solid shots. Their bore, wind and solid shot caliber were:
• French 36, ordonnance de 1786, ≈ 174,83 ㎜ ≈ 6.883"
/ ≈ 5,64 ㎜ ≈ 0.222" / ≈ 169,19 ㎜ ≈ 6.661"
price, 1340 ₶ ≈ £58
• British 32, ≈ 162 81 ㎜ = 6.41" / ≈ 7,75 ㎜ = 0.305" / ≈ 155,07 ㎜ = 6.41"
price, ≈ £50

A British medium 12-pounder weighed a bit more than 300 solid shots, had a bore of some 117,42 ㎜ or 4.623", a wind of some 5,59 ㎜ or 0.22", a solid shot caliber of some 111.84 ㎜ or 4.403", and a range (+5°) somewhat larger than 1,4 ㎞, nearer to 0.90 mile.

A French 36-pounder obusier de vaisseau (ordonnance de 1787) weighed some 360 ㎏ ≈ 793 lb (20.4 solid shots). I assume its bore diameter was some 172,57 ㎜ ≈ 6.794", and its wind, ≈ 3,38 ㎜ ≈ 0.133"; the caliber of its solid shot was some 169,19 ㎜ ≈ 6.661".

• French 36-pounder carronade (year XIII of the Republic = 1804-1805):
weight, ≈ 1146 ㎏ ≈ 2526 lb ≈ 65.0 solid shots
bore, ≈ 172,57 ㎜ ≈ 6.794"
wind, ≈ 3,38 ㎜ ≈ 0.133"
solid shot, ≈ 169,19 ㎜ ≈ 6,661"
range (+5°), ≈ 1,1 ㎞ ≈ 0.68 mile

• British 32-pounder carronade (4' 3½"):
weight, ≈ 870 ㎏ = 1918 lb (59.9 solid shots)
bore, = 158,75 ㎜ = 6.25"
wind, ≈ 3,68 ㎜ = 0.145"
solid shot, ≈ 155,07 ㎜ = 6.105"
range (+5°), 1,04 ㎞ ≈ 0.65 mile.

French had tested a few true carronades from 1799 (according to Jacques Onésime Troude, who isn't perfectly reliable in any page).

From: Spencer Tucker, The Carronade. In: Nautical Research Journal, Vol. 42 № 1 (March 1997), pages 15-23 (here from pages 22-23):

«Following the decisive American naval victory on Lake Erie on 10 September 1813, the English commander, Captain Barclay, noted:

“The weather-gauge gave the enemy a prodigious advantage, as it enabled them not only to choose their position, but their distance also, which they did in such a manner as to prevent the carronades of the Queen Charlotte and Lady Prevost from having much effect; whilst their long guns did great execution, particularly against the Queen Charlotte.”

In a battle fought at close quarters, 32-pounder carronades on Wasp inflicted heavy damage on HMS Frolic, also armed largely with carronades. The same was true in the victory won by Hornet over HMS Peacock, another contest in which carronades were the principal armament.

Late in the war, the tables were turned on the Americans when the United States Navy frigate Essex, armed almost exclusively with carronades, was defeated at long range by the British warships Phoebe and Cherub, both armed with long guns. The American vessel possessed superior speed — the essential for carronade armament — but Essex was damaged early in the engagement and her speed could not be used. The British warships were able to stand off at long range and pound the American vessel. As Captain Porter of Essex put it:

“The Phoebe by edging off was enabled to choose the distance which best suited her long guns, and kept up a tremendous fire, which mowed down my brave companions by the dozen. The enemy from the smoothness of the water, and the impossibility of reaching him with our carronades, was enabled to take aim at us as at a target; his shot never missed our hull, and my ship was cut up in a manner which was perhaps never before witnessed.”

After two-and-a-half hours of battle, with their ship disabled and on fire, the Essex's crew surrendered. This engagement considerably tarnished the reputation of the carronade and reinforced the conclusion that vessels should not be armed exclusively with them.

* * * * *

Carronades continued in service for some years. A French commission visiting Britain in 1835 found that although they were still part of the regular armament of older ships, carronades were being replaced "to a great extent by guns of newer construction." By 1849 the Times of London observed that carronades were fit only for use by pirates.»

Posted by M C on Wednesday 22nd of March 2023 22:13

Cy: What, you can't remember everything about 28,000 items? Astonishing! <grin> Ok, you got me there, especially since my own memory seems to be fading fast with age. Anyway, one other item which may possibly be of some use: the DNB entry for David Milne fortunately DOES have the correct date for the final capture of Vengeance, which is 1800-08-21, as previously discussed. I'll stop now and hope that my overlong text has helped slightly with this one ship!

Posted by Cy on Wednesday 22nd of March 2023 09:27

Thanks for the reference to the letter. I was not aware of it. As for evidence, would you have me accept everyones statements on face value, surely not? Three Decks tries to be as accurate as possible, without some level of verification thath can not happen.

However you are clearly over estimating my memory capacity, Three Decks has details of over 28,800 vessels, it would be remarkable if I remember every detail of every one, or every minor action. Especially as my primary area of interest is the 17C and early 18C and this is 19C.

As for your original message, I read it very carefully. I reiterate that the data shown on this page is for 1794 and therefore requires no alteration based on information from 1800. Whihc may get added as well.

Posted by Mark on Wednesday 22nd of March 2023 06:16

Cy:
1) You apparently did not read my message carefully. If you'll look at it again, I said "1799+". The plus sign commonly indicates that the data applies after the specified year as well, as it does in this case. I phrased it that way because of course Vengeance sailed from France for the Caribbean in November 1799.

2) I am surprised that you are not aware of this very commonly known data; perhaps the battle is more familiar on the left side of the Atlantic due to its association with Constellation's hard-fought battle with Vengeance? Regardless, since you require "proof", I presume and hope that Milne's official letter, which appeared in the London Gazette on 4 November 1800 (pages 1256-1257) will suffice? The key data is: "She was immediately taken Possession of, and proved to be the French Frigate the Vengeance, Citizen Pitot, Capitaine de Vaisseau, Commander, mounting Twenty-eight Eighteen-Pounders on her Main Deck, Sixteen Twelve-Pounders, and Eight Forty-two-Pounder Carronades on her Quarter-Deck and Forecastle, and Brass Swivels on the Gunwale-, with shifting Guns on the Main and Quarter Decks. The Weight of Metal I have mentioned in French Pounds."

Note that Milne was incorrect in one particular, as the French Navy did not HAVE "42-pdr carronades" at this time, but rather only 36-pdr "Obusiers", which were adaptations of land howitzers and proved to be very poor imitations of carronades indeed; the French did not introduce REAL carronades until about 1804, after copying them from British designs, and they did not become the *norm* for French warships until perhaps as late as 1807. As 36 French pounds equated to about 39 British pounds, which was close to the 42-pdr caliber of old long guns and heavy carronades, it was relatively common for British reports to state that the 36-pdr Obusier was a 42-pdr carronade. Now, because Milne made a mistake about the carronades, I suppose it is possible that he or his officers mistook 8-pdr long guns as 12-pdrs; but in the hundreds of records of captured French vessels that I have reviewed, it appears that mistakes with long gun calibers were far rarer than with the oddly-shaped and strange-to-British-eyes Obusiers. FWIW.

Two other errors that need correcting (don't rememeber if I mentioned these before or not):

a) The name of the French captain was "François Marie Pitot", ***NOT*** "A. M. Pitot".

b) David Milne wrote his letter on 22 August, but either he or, more likely the London Gazette, reported the actual capture date as "25 August", which is patently and obviously incorrect, both from logic and from the details of the encounter in his letter.

Suggest you correct all of these forthwith. Hope this helps.

Posted by Cy on Saturday 18th of March 2023 10:01

Hi Mark

Armament changed over time, neither of the included armament lists are for 1799.
Please let me have details of the verifiable source(s) for your list and I will happily update the record to include it.

Cy

Posted by Mark Campbell on Saturday 18th of March 2023 00:58

This armament data is incorrect. When captured by the British, Vengeance had 28 x 18pdr long guns on her GD, 16 x 12pdr long guns on her QD and FC, and also 8 x 36pdr French Obusiers (*NOT* carronades!). You should change her gunnery data to the above for Vengeance for the period 1799+.

Posted by Dan O'Dowd on Wednesday 30th of May 2018 01:56

According to Rif Winfield & Stephen Roberts in French Warships in the Age of Sail, the Vengeance has dimensions:

LD: 150 ft
L of Keel: 132 ft
B: 39 ft
D of hold: 19ft 10in

measured in pieds & pounces.

Guns: 28 x 24pdrs, 20 x 12pdrs [6 Fc, 14 QD]

changed to:

28 x 18 pdrs, 20 x 8 pdrs

Keel laid down: 8/3/1793
Launched: 9/1794